Curse

Akaraxle · Oct 03, 2009, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Bring on the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing costume brawls already, the only honorable format left worth playing.

Dragon Arena!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.

And this is where we have to see through the adorned facts conveyed by the community managers, where relevant (but overlooked by most) information is omitted.
What makes a "unique" submission? This is a very important detail. From a technical standpoint, I'd guess builds were submitted as template codes, which in turn contain information about skills and attributes. Heck, I wonder about the skill order too.
That a standard shock axe was only submitted 62 times, I can't really believe (unless Guild Wars players are way, way worse at the game than I expected). A shock axe with that particular distribution of attribute points, yes, it's very much more likely.

Concerning the practical validity of the builds, I really don't have much to say that hasn't been said already. Honestly, it would've made much more sense to implement e.g. a Power Attack spammer, which would likely work with the dumbest AI, than choose a shock axe and make it do a half-assed job until resources are allocated to update the AI (knowing ANet, months to come).
As this guy said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Henches are there to provide so-so replacement for missing players, not to provide accurate simulation of "noob".

which tells you that it would've been much better to pick original bars that work on the current AI (under the premise that small modifications could've been made to make them fully functional/more effective), making the contestants happy & saving yourselves the trouble of recoding the AI to make henchmen perform underwhelmingly with bars made for players.

It would've been win-win. Everyone I know has always been happy with their trusty Mage Henchman.

Auron of Neon · Oct 03, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Lex, incoming is bad. Also, paragons are poorly designed. All a player paragon has to do is mash buttons on recharge, so naturally a hero can do that just fine. It isn't a huge feat to design a paragon build that heroes can run, because they can run most of them.

I certainly wouldn't want a fall back... er, incoming para on my team to replace a dc'd one.

Lex · Oct 03, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Auron, I didnt say this is the best paragon build. It is ok for me, could not be for everyone. I brought it only to prove that Jarus's arguments are wrong.

zwei2stein · Oct 03, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

I had originally written a much larger response, but in light of the giant one up at the top, I'll just summarize:

No, you're wrong. The devs have the last say in anything that gets put into their game. The community can make any bad suggestions they want, but as soon as the devs implement those bad ideas, the devs are at fault for not sieving through ideas and figuring out the ideas were bad in the first place.

In fact, that's part of Reggie's job.

No,

You see, community decides what is good or bad. Devs will not know that untill they release changes to public. They can think they did damn fine job and actually do it well, but community can and will disagree because they have different point of view.

Idea is to let community disagree *before* idea is implemented and choose best from several options.

Abusive Name · Oct 03, 2009, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Anet really failed this time, heroes fail at using those builds and most of the builds can be found from PvX.

keli · Oct 03, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

For putting skills you dont like to henchmen?

Are you completely insane?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6hL6fkJ1_k

Coast · Oct 03, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

No, for breaking rules.
Everyone must follow rules, if these are broken there must be punishment.

noneedforclevernames · Oct 03, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

ok...all the builds suck.
GZ on making henchmen just as useless as the originals!

Jarus · Oct 03, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex

Skills in this build support the rest of team, and, in my opinion, they are worth taking because they could have use. I would be glad to have such henchman in team in cause of team member's err7 during full HA run.

I agree that those skills are worth taking (for a phys-heavy team). That's not my point though, is it? My point is that there is a limited selection of skills that should be taken at all. A better counter-argument would be to point out a viable build using skills like Song of Concentration, "We Shall Return!", Signet of Aggression, "Make your time", or many other skills which you wouldn't rightly see in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex

I tested my build with hero - and guess what? It works great. There is no lack of energy, adrenaline and so on. And it is full bar hench.

Not much that can go wrong with that bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex

I cant find my build on PvXwiki....

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:P/any_Toolbox_Paragon
Swap the attack skills (the selection of which aren't synergistic to the rest of the bar), and you're looking at something quite similar.

Sorry, Lex.

So imagine, Lex, if you'd won with that bar, people would be saying that you c&p'd from PvX wiki.

Lex · Oct 03, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

A better counter-argument would be to point out a viable build using skills like Song of Concentration, "independent!", Signet of Aggression, "Make your time", or many other skills which you wouldn't rightly see in PvP.

That quote itself suggests you dont have idea what is happening in current PvP.

Song of Concentration not in PvP? 95% of good HA teambuilds have this skill.
"We Shall Return!" not in PvP? I often saw this on paragons to keep Aggressive Refrain up.

The problem with these skills is - they are bad on independent hero. SoC wont be used before altar cap, and WSR! wont be used before any res (tested).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:P/any_Toolbox_Paragon
Swap the attack skills (the selection of which aren't synergistic to the rest of the bar), and you're looking at something quite similar.

Yes, swap 5(!!!) skills and you will get mine. Swaping over 50% of skills could get you probably any other build, lol.

MagmaRed · Oct 03, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

I agree that the builds that won (most of them) are bad for hero/hench use. What scares me more though, it the AI tweaks that they say will be coming. I may not understand it well, but the way I do understand it, the tweaks will affect ALL henchment. So if targeting is changed so they would use snares well, does that mean the AI for Little Thom, Sogolon, Cynn, etc. will also change, and they may not work as well due to the new targeting setup? And if I have heroes set up that work very well, but use skills that are on those builds, will my heroes change due to the AI tweaks? Will the monsters that use those skills in PvE now be harder/easier to deal with?

They should have limited it to builds the CURRENT AI can handle. Meta builds on NPCs is a crappy idea, so they succeeded in removing heroes from HA and GvG, but they failed on the contest.

El Presidente · Oct 03, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

Another note: remember that Guild Wars is always changing. The design team may decide to modify the henchmen in the future if they feel it's appropriate, this includes tweaking their AI, or even changing their skills

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

What scares me more though, it the AI tweaks that they say will be coming.

Doesn't look like they said AI tweaks will be coming. It says, "may decide...in the future"...and "if they feel it's appropriate..."

Remember when you were young and a parent said, "We'll see"? Uh, that meant, "No".

I translate that to = We're not wasting any more time/resources on this. While the intent was to...blah, blah, blah...it just wasn't doable. What's placed in game is done. Be grateful we did anything and be quiet now. Oh, and buy GW2. Thx ~ Anet.

Shadowmoon · Oct 03, 2009, 02:19 PM // 14:19

"We recognize that the changes to this skill will essentially remove it from play. In the future, we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of this skill that would be viable but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use."
From Smiter's boons nerf over a year ago. It seems to me "In the Future" means never for Anet.
I guess they got what they wanted, they smiterbooned henchies, because no one would take one as a serious replacement.

JR · Oct 03, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

*sigh* I'll say it, because I know a lot are thinking it. This game is nearly 5 years old... what originality? And if you hold the notion that you possess an original build give me 5 minutes with google and I'll prove you wrong. If you hold a combination that is so truly original there can be found no mention of it... it's probably that way for a reason.

You are using the same flawed logic as ArenaNet. Let me try to explain:

If this was a contest to design builds for PvP character templates then yes, it would be silly not to use popular and proven builds. Player builds have been designed to death over the last five years as you say, and there are no original ideas left. That's where your point stops working, because this is a contest about henchman bars, not player bars.

Good bars on a henchman and good bars on a player are apples and oranges. Sure, there are *some* bars that would work well on both, the Necro bars aren't terrible, but they are still not optimal for AI.

The very idea that the chosen builds would be gimmicky meta builds from PvXWiki (or whatever) undermines the entire idea of the contest. It's like running a contest for your villages prize bull, and people only entering with sheep.

It's even worse than that, sadly. The few bars that aren't just ineffective and poor (split characters, etc) are effective for all of the wrong reasons. They are gimmicky bars that abuse AI. The idea of an AI Magebane bot in PvP is mind boggling, that could well be the most annoying and frustrating bar you could give an AI character.

In an attempt to get effective and desirable bars, ArenaNet chose to go with popular player builds. The logic being: If people want players with mindblast bars, they will want henchmen with those bars too. I'm afraid that's just not true. People want henchmen who aren't going to suck. Akaraxle said it pretty well here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Honestly, it would've made much more sense to implement e.g. a Power Attack spammer, which would likely work with the dumbest AI, than choose a shock axe and make it do a half-assed job until resources are allocated to update the AI (knowing ANet, months to come).

Effective henchmen bars should be designed entirely around what henchmen can do well. In the case of melee, that is train targets and spam damage skills. Shock on a henchman bar is always going to be pointless. I could see how AI might be improved to make Frenzy more viable, but it's always going to be a weakness. Give them some other IAS without that major drawback. Again, just because Frenzy is by far the best IAS on a Warrior, doesn't mean it's ever going to be the best IAS on a henchman.

It would be pretty easy to come up with two bars for each profession that are both original and that would work well with henchman AI. They would be more effective, more desirable, and healthier for the game. Instead we have gimped metabuilds shoe-horned in, because the entries were judged on entirely the wrong criteria. It doesn't matter how much they try to patch things up with improving AI, chances are it will just make a bigger mess.

Smarty · Oct 03, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

Well what were you expecting her to say?

"Yep, the builds are both unoriginal and suck, but we had to go with what you dimwits actually submitted."

That would make my day.

Quote:

I don't get some of you people. Are there ANY builds which are both useful for gvg/ha and original?

No. The derogatory comment "unique snowflake" springs to mind - it's what gets said whenever someone tries to be original.

*

Agreed -1 for choosing builds on wiki despite them saying they wanted original builds, agreed -1 for choosing builds that the AI can't cope with; however, +several million for choosing GOOD bars. Not a single poster has complained about how shitty the bars are, how the skills on there are crap, how utterly useless they'd be in a HA or GvG setting. ANet should get some credit for that, surely.

Akaraxle · Oct 03, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

You are using the same flawed logic as ArenaNet. Let me try to explain:

If this was a contest to design builds for PvP character templates then yes, it would be silly not to use popular and proven builds. Player builds have been designed to death over the last five years as you say, and there are no original ideas left. That's where your point stops working, because this is a contest about henchman bars, not player bars.

Good bars on a henchman and good bars on a player are apples and oranges. Sure, there are *some* bars that would work well on both, the Necro bars aren't terrible, but they are still not optimal for AI.

The very idea that the chosen builds would be gimmicky meta builds from PvXWiki (or whatever) undermines the entire idea of the contest. It's like running a contest for your villages prize bull, and people only entering with sheep.

It's even worse than that, sadly. The few bars that aren't just ineffective and poor (split characters, etc) are effective for all of the wrong reasons. They are gimmicky bars that abuse AI. The idea of an AI Magebane bot in PvP is mind boggling, that could well be the most annoying and frustrating bar you could give an AI character.

In an attempt to get effective and desirable bars, ArenaNet chose to go with popular player builds. The logic being: If people want players with mindblast bars, they will want henchmen with those bars too. I'm afraid that's just not true. People want henchmen who aren't going to suck. Akaraxle said it pretty well here:

Effective henchmen bars should be designed entirely around what henchmen can do well. In the case of melee, that is train targets and spam damage skills. Shock on a henchman bar is always going to be pointless. I could see how AI might be improved to make Frenzy more viable, but it honestly isn't worth it. Give them some other IAS, it really doesn't make much of a difference.

It would be very easy to come up with two bars for each profession that are both original and that would work well with henchman AI. They would be more effective, more desirable, and healthier for the game. Instead we have gimped metabuilds shoe-horned in, because the entries were judged on entirely the wrong criteria. It doesn't matter how much they try to patch things up with improving AI, chances are it will just make a bigger mess.

JR is sexy.

It's like ANet is trying to keep people happy with decent ideas that involve the least effort possible, and STILL keeps f***ing up on the execution. I hope whoever is in charge of the "not f***ing up" department wakes up by the time GW2 comes out.

Lex · Oct 03, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

Agreed -1 for choosing builds on wiki despite them saying they wanted original builds, agreed -1 for choosing builds that the AI can't cope with; however, +several million for choosing GOOD bars. Not a single poster has complained about how shitty the bars are, how the skills on there are crap, how utterly useless they'd be in a HA or GvG setting. ANet should get some credit for that, surely.

What does make the bar GOOD? Yes, skills, but not only. Its "the mind" who controls them. Yes, for human these bars are GOOD, but for the current AI state they are BAD, and we all know that AI improvement will not come soon.

FoxBat · Oct 03, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

how utterly useless they'd be in a HA or GvG setting.

If the AI can't run the skills then they are useless.

Smarty · Oct 03, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

So ANet has to add to their already overfull workload and fix their screwup by making their chosen bars work with the AI. Their choice their problem. If they don't, well, the contest was even more a waste of time than everyone already thinks it was. If they do, good, it's about time the AI was fixed.

Trytan · Oct 03, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

I've always given ANet the benefit of the doubt in most all of their blunders....but this is just ridiculous. Either they have no idea how the hench/hero AI actually works (a frightening thought), or they just did this contest as a way to remove NPC's from high level PVP. They are already saying all the time that their resources are spread fairly thin, I can't see them even thinking about tackling something like hench AI in order to use some of these builds semi-effectively.

Either way it was a huge miscommunication on their part as to what this whole contest was actually about. This has to rank up there as one of the biggest blunders in ANet history.